Episode 146
For the Love of Goats

As goat owners in America, we know the challenges we face in caring for our herds here at home. But what is it like to breed and raise goats in another country?
In this episode, Sue Ludwig and Jade Holberton are here to talk about raising goats in Australia. Sue is the founder of the Australian Miniature Goat breed, and is the author of Australian Miniature Goats: A Comprehensive Guide to a Unique Little Breed. She is also a lifetime member and president of the Miniature Goat Breeders Association of Australia (MGBA).
Jade is secretary of the MGBA and a major importer of Nigerian Dwarf genetics into Australia from the US, mostly from Old Mountain Farm. She has been very successful with embryo and AI programs and bringing in new genetics.
Sue and Jade detail how they approached the breeding of the Australian Miniature Goat, an especially challenging undertaking considering that live animals cannot be imported into Australia due to the fact that the US has not yet been officially declared scrapie-free. They also discuss some of the practical challenges Australian goat owners face, such as finding knowledgeable vets and good minerals.
Learn more about Sue and Jade’s goats:
Transcript – Raising Goats in Australia
Introduction 00:02
For the love of goats. We are talking about everything goat. Whether you’re a goat owner, a breeder, or just a fan of these wonderful creatures, we’ve got you covered. And now, here’s Deborah Niemann.
Deborah Niemann 00:17
Hello everyone, and welcome to today’s episode. We are going to have so much fun today, because we are talking to a couple of ladies from Australia about raising goats in Australia. And I always find conversations like this super interesting. I got to hear them speak at the American Dairy Goat Association conference a couple months ago, and I’m super excited that they decided to join me on the show today.
Sue Ludwig is the founder of the Australian Miniature Goat breed, and is the author of Australian Miniature Goats: A Comprehensive Guide to a Unique Little Breed. She is also the president of the Miniature Goat Breeders Association of Australia, the MGBA, and she’s a lifetime member.
Jade Holberton is a major importer of Nigerian Dwarf genetics into Australia from the US, mostly from Old Mountain Farm, and she’s been very successful with embryo and AI programs and bringing in new genetics and stuff. And she’s also the secretary of the MGBA for the last seven years. And we’re going to be talking about all kinds of really cool stuff today. Welcome to the show, Sue and Jade.
Sue and Jade
Hi.
Deborah
So this would probably be a great time to ask Sue, since she founded the Miniature Goat Association, what is the difference between the Australian Miniature Goats and the Nigerian Dwarf or Pygmies, or other small goats?
Sue 01:37
So, back in 1993 we couldn’t get the Nigerian Dwarf goats over here. We didn’t even know they existed. I had a lady come around, because we used to rescue animals, and she came around and mentioned that there was such a thing–Nigerian Dwarfs–and I was quite interested. We couldn’t import them at the time. It was quite costly and very difficult, so we decided to try and breed a similar animal over here in Australia. We used different breeds–Cashmere, the Angora, little wild goats with the meat goats and the dairy goats–to try and create our own smaller version, which is very similar to the Nigerian, only not as dairy. They’re sort of a dual purpose in between a Pygmy and a Nigerian Dwarf. So if you put those two together, you’d be fairly similar in structure, probably a little bit more Nigerian body type.
Deborah 02:46
Okay, and could you give us an idea of the timeline for how that worked?
Sue 02:52
So, 1995 was when I started to get serious about it, and I started scribbling notes and information down on paper. We didn’t have the internet back then, so everything was having to spend an hour traveling up to the libraries in Brisbane to get information. Because we were rescuing animals at the time, and a lot of people were giving us their small Cashmere and Angora, and it was crossbreds, we selected–very carefully selected–a small handful of animals out of the copious amount of animals that were given to us for our base stock. And then, over the course of the next 10 years, we very carefully paired different breeds to produce something that was small enough, but also had the confirmation and structure that we were looking for, and that was able to milk and support kids and to kid safely. Because, you know, when you’re bringing them down that small, you sort of start to have trouble with kidding if you’re selecting for good rumps and mothering and all that sort of stuff.
So there was quite a group of us by the 10th year. The first five years was very difficult because I was on my own, and I am actually a dairy cattle farmer. Married into a dairy cattle farm, and they hated the goats. Absolutely detested them, so it was a struggle for the first five years trying to get off the ground. And my husband was brilliant. He was very supportive. Still didn’t like the idea that I had them, but yes, he was very supportive and sort of left me to my own devices.
Once I got to that fifth year in 2000, I was able to launch a small club and convince a small handful of people to participate with that. And then once we did that, I had a little bit of a pathway to sort of bring people in, and each animal that got sold, we encouraged them to join, and it sort of went very slowly with that, but by the 10th year, we had quite a little following, and most breeders only had, you know, up to 10 animals.
So it wasn’t a big farming thing. We were trying to bring these little fellas out of the commercial market and into the pet market, where they were better cared for, much like our dogs. You know, we set really strict standards on health and welfare and all of that sort of thing. And then now we’re 20 odd years into it, we’ve got some absolutely fabulous breeders. We’ve been very lucky to have breeders that actually know how to breed livestock and pets in general, and with those guys on board who know how to select and and all of that sort of thing, we’ve come a long way, and here we are today with showing them and quite successful with them.
And they’re very competitive. They’ve been used as the basis for the Nigerian Dwarfs and the Pygmies coming into the country. A lot of people have used them as their crosses, because they’re such good quality. And then some of the Nigerians that have been produced are absolutely fabulous because they’ve had that good background to sort of set them up on.
Deborah 06:24
You mentioned that some of the local Cashmere and Angora goats were used to develop this breed. So that makes me wonder, what kind of coat these goats have. Is it like a slick dairy goat coat, or is it more of a mohair or cashmere?
Sue 06:40
We have several different varieties. With the crossing of the dairy and the Boer goat and the continuous crossing in, we ended up with a lot that had the short, lovely, short sleek coat. We also had a group of people develop what we call the sheltie, which is a long coat animal that is quite illustrious, but it’s not like a thick, low hair. It’s just a hair coat, which is absolutely beautiful when it’s groomed up properly. We do have cashmere come through in some of the stock, which is easy to manage in summer because it all just falls out.
The Cashmere and the Angora were the best bases. The other populations weren’t as reliable because a lot of those animals were stunted through lack of nutrition, whereas your Angora and your Cashmere types, they are fairly standard and they’re well looked after. So a lot of the base, a lot of the good base stock, was bred off of those guys, with the Boer goat and eventually Kalahari goats putting in the meat side of things and muscling. And then we were lucky enough to work with some dairy breeders later in the program, and had some dairy bucks brought through, and they sort of helped with the udders, bringing in the beautiful, capacious udders and the good teats, because we had a little bit of trouble with the teats, especially coming off of some of the feral populations.
Deborah 08:14
Okay. Jade, you have Nigerian Dwarfs that you imported into the country. You were one of the first importers. I remember quite some time ago, I had a forum online, and Michael, I cannot remember his last name, but he was one of the members. And I know he was in Australia and was one of the first people to import also.
Jade 08:35
Yes, he was.
Deborah 08:36
So can you tell us a little bit about, like, why you decided to import Nigerians and how that worked?
Jade 08:43
Yep, so Michael Garwood bought in the first Nigerians, and I think because he was the first, the advice that we got was we were never going to get good quality animals, because no one wanted to put the animal down to bring them out to Australia. So the animal needs to be put down through different tests, which can only be done when the animal is deceased. So that was a huge barrier for a lot of people bringing the animal in. So I didn’t feel that we had quite the quality that we needed out here, which led me to look at Old Mountain Farm, and there were some other breeders there that we ended up getting some fabulous stock. So that’s where that came from.
Thankfully, we had a little bit of money to do it, because it’s really not cheap importing. But yeah, I loved, I loved the Nigerians. I started making cheese back sort of 10 years ago, and that got me inspired with the Nigerians, and I knew that they’d just been imported from Michael, so that sort of triggered that for me. But I’m super happy at the moment, because we’ve got some of the best genetics in the country now, and we’re really seeing the difference in the stock on the ground here. So super excited.
Deborah 10:04
Yeah. Can you explain a little more what you mean about the tests require animals to be put down, because that sounds like you’re importing a dead animal, which doesn’t make sense.
Jade 10:16
So in regards to bucks, they are collected. We collect semen from the bucks. And when we’ve finished collection, the animal needs to be put down, which I try not to think about because I hate that part of this process. And there is a test that is taken for scrapie. And I think there’s a couple of others. I can’t remember off the top of my head now. But for that test, a sample of the brain tissue needs to be removed, so the animal needs to be put down to take that sample. And that’s why the animal has to be put down, because it’s not something–it’s not a test that can be done on a live animal.
In regards to does, we would be looking at collecting embryos, flushing them, and once the flush is complete, then the same process. So, and then the embryos are stored in nitrogen before they’re shipped out here.
Deborah 11:06
So then you collect either the sperm or the embryos from the animals. Are they still in the US at that time?
Jade 11:12
Down in the US. Yeah.
Deborah 11:14
Ok, so what you’re getting is like a semen canister, not an animal?
Jade 11:18
Not an animal, no. It’d be lovely if we could. It’d be so much easier.
Deborah 11:24
Yeah, definitely. And you had some challenges. I remember Michael was in our group when he had his first babies, and I do remember they were embryo transfers. They were transplanted into the feral Australian goats, because he said that they’ll be very healthy and have easy pregnancies and deliveries and stuff. But I remember that a lot of his males were cryptorchids, which is just heartbreaking. Like you spend all this money to bring in these genetics and then you can’t use them, because obviously the cryptorchidism was very strong in that genetic line. So even if they weren’t a cryptorchid, probably had the genetics.
Jade 12:02
Devastating.
Deborah 12:03
And I know you’ve had some challenges too. Can you talk a little bit about some of the genetic challenges you’ve had?
Jade 12:09
So this came through our original breeder, unbeknownst to him, a buck was imported. I think it might have been two bucks, two or two or three bucks. Genetics were imported into the country, and they were supposed to have been fullbloods. That wasn’t till sometime down the track that we were seeing signs of what is the fainting goat, and this myotonic gene was becoming apparent. So we had a big–for us with the MGBA we were not going to entertain the idea of the myotonic gene in our breed at all. We did not want it, and we all knew that we needed to put a stop to it, try and nick this in the bud.
Because of people out there breeding the Nigerians, we were getting carriers. But all it took was one carrier to another carrier to create an affected animal. And we were seeing that now, that there were a lot of animals out there now, lots of carriers, and we were seeing the affected animals. It was a huge, huge problem for us. I think Sue might be a better person to finish this one off, because she spent a lot of time visiting studs where people were suspecting they had myotonic goats. Sue, do you want to say something on that?
Sue 13:28
Yeah, if you like. The myotonic affected characteristics that we see in Australia aren’t the same as what you see in the American fainting animals. Our animals over here that we’ve been able to observe tend to have just the back legs paralyzed for a minute or two, and the animal’s face tenses up, and they either end up with their eyes just stuck open, or their eyes stuck shut, and of course, the animal gets very distressed because it can’t move and it can’t get up properly. And then once it relaxes, they then come back to being able to move about.
We have seen a lot of these animals come through. Unfortunately, they did come through with the first lot of imports, we were advised as soon as the breeder was aware. We had worked very hard as a group to actually remove them from our breeds and our association, so we don’t allow them to be registered. Anything that was registered was removed and just put down as a recording, and because some people were still breeding from those animals, so all of those animals had to be tested, and any offspring that tested clear for the gene were allowed to then come in and be registered.
We’ve done a fabulous job, as an association being able to remove it. Most of our breeders have wethered the bucks, which has been fabulous, because obviously you’re taking out half of the problem. And most of the does that I’m aware of have been just retired as pets. But yes, there’s a little group of breeders that are still working with them in the community. And there’s been breeders that have just sold them on to unsuspecting buyers, unfortunately, and they’re the people that contact us with these animals that the vets can’t work out what’s wrong with them, and we have to sort of go out and explain, and then they do the DNA testing.
So New Zealand does the testing. They’re fabulous. They work with us, and have been since the get-go. I think it’s about a $30 charge in New Zealand to get it done, and it’s just peace of mind for everybody. Once the animal is clear, its progeny will be clear, provided it’s put to a clear animal. So it’s very easy to take out of the system, and once it’s out, it’s out properly.
Deborah 16:11
Wow, that is very interesting. It’s very interesting that the myotonic gene showed up in some of the goats that got imported in Australia, because we don’t usually see that in the U.S. Nigerians, but obviously it was, unfortunately, in one of the animals that was imported, or the semen from one of the animals that was imported, right?
Sue 16:31
Correct. And if you trace back, you know in the studs, you can actually see some studs in America that actually run myotonic herds and Nigerian herds, and some have Pygmy herds as well, all in the same stud. So you know what little goats are like. They’re quite naughty on a good day. It would be very easy for one to get out and get into the wrong breed and then get back into its own pen or just be found out. You know, yeah. It would be very easy for that to happen. It’s a very honest mistake, and unbeknownst to the breeder, especially if they’re not doing DNA parent verification.
We do DNA verification, parent verification, here in Australia, especially that the breeders have spent so much money importing the animals. We want to make sure that they’re, you know, the animal is what it is, and that the buyers are getting what they’re paying for.
Deborah 17:34
Yeah, exactly. So what other breeds do you have in Australia, besides the miniature goats and the Nigerians?
Sue 17:42
So we have the Saanen, British Alpine, Toggenburg, Anglo-Nubian. And we’ve got two types of Anglo-Nubian: the American type, which is the bigger framed animal, and our heritage one, which is a smaller animal. We have what they call, I think it’s an all black, and then there’s a brown. There’s La Mancha. And then we have, I think they’re the dairy breeds. There might be Alpine now, I’m not sure.
And then we’ve got Boer and the Cashmere, the Boer, Kalahari, Australian miniature. And then we’ve got Nuwby, which is offset of the Australian miniature, which is almost a miniature Nubian, but it’s got the Boer in the background too, so it’s a heavier set animal. And then Nigerian Dwarf and Pygmy goats. Don’t think I’ve forgotten any.
Jade 18:42
That is a lot. We don’t have the Oberhasli, which I love.
Sue 18:46
We don’t, yes, we don’t have the Oberhasli yet. There’s a gentleman in Victoria who’s actually imported the myotonic in the meat breed. So the big myotonic animal for the Contender production, which is a cross-bred commercial animal.
Deborah 19:05
So one of the things that every goat owner in the United States complains about is that we do not have a lot of vets here who have experience with goats. Do you have trouble in Australia finding vets that have experience with goats?
Jade 19:19
Yeah, very difficult. We do have a vet that works across the country. She mainly does online now. Her name is Sandra Baxendell, and she’s been very good, but she’s retired now, but she gives lots of good information to people. We do have a select number of goat vets, but they’re hard to get hold of, and I think there’s quite a few now that are doing sort of online. We can do online consultations, and that seems to work quite well for people who are remote. But I think Sue will agree that, yeah, a good goat vet is very difficult to find here.
Sue 19:58
And we do a lot of training. We have the vets students come out to our farm and do little bits of training with us. We’ve done that for years, trying to encourage them to specialize in the goats for us.
Deborah 20:15
So in the United States, the vet schools here have clinics that are open to the public, so that if you have a problem, you know, you can take your goat to the clinic. And it’s great because they’re actually emergency clinics, so they’re open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Do you have that available to you in Australia?
Sue 20:34
Yeah, we got Gatton.
Jade 20:36
Oh, Gatton.
Sue
We’ve got Gatton College, yeah, but that’s in Queensland. Jade’s down in New South Wales.
Deborah 20:44
So there is one vet hospital?
Sue 20:47
Yeah, a university hospital. I am not sure of any others. No doubt there’s probably others, but that’s the one I know again.
Jade 20:55
Still, Australia is such a big country. It would be really wonderful to have them dotted around, pipping around the planes, but we don’t.
Deborah 21:04
Yeah, yeah, but we don’t have a ton either. There’s–I think we’re up to 27 or 28 vet schools in the US now. So we don’t even have one in every state, unfortunately. But I’ve heard that actually they got a few started that are smaller, like, for the first two years, but they don’t have the hospitals with them. So it’s just where the students can get their first couple years, and then they transfer to a bigger one.
So when it comes to feeding your goats in Australia, in the US, we have goat feeds that have got added minerals and stuff, and then we’ve got loose minerals that we can have available free choice. Then, mostly during the winter, when goats are, you know, there’s no pasture where you live, people are feeding hay. Typically alfalfa is the legume hay that they’re feeding, but like, there’s peanut hay in the southeast United States and lespedeza. So what exactly do you feed your goats in Australia?
Jade 22:02
We’ve probably got the same sort of feed that you have. So yeah, we’ve got all different hays, probably different sorts of grass hays and alfalfa. We do have specialist vitamin and mineral supplies. If you don’t really have goat connections, it’s very difficult to know where to go to. Can’t just pick some of this stuff up at your local produce store. You need to order online, and there’s so many different types of minerals that you don’t quite know which one. There are different varieties. Some have a little of the vitamin. Some have a lot. It’s a real mixed bag, but we’ve certainly got access to lots of vitamin and minerals, but it’s just, you know, just doesn’t make it easy to find them. It’s all online, basically.
Deborah 22:50
Okay, yeah, in the United States, there’s a lot of minerals that actually don’t have a lot of minerals in them, mostly salt. So people really have to read the labels, unfortunately.
Jade 23:04
That’s true. Yeah.
Deborah 24:05
They have to know what they’re looking for. They have to read past the hype. You know, the hype will be “contains all these minerals for health…” and blah, blah, blah. But like, if you look at the guaranteed analysis, then you’re like, Oh yeah, there’s not really not enough copper, not enough selenium. So you guys are pretty much in the same boat?
Sue 23:27
Yeah, so a lot of our horse minerals over here are better than a lot of the goat minerals and more reliable, I find. I tend to use quite a lot of the horse products over here. We have a big horse industry in Australia, and the products they use for the horses are very, very good, and we just have to then balance them to suit what we need for the goats.
Deborah 23:57
Yeah, that’s what people have to do here with senior goats, because once they start losing their teeth, they can’t eat the regular goat feeds anymore because they’re too crunchy, too hard. But the senior horse feeds are made for a horse without teeth, so you can crumble them between your fingers.
And interestingly enough, the nutritional analysis is very similar to goat feed. So yeah, it’s interesting that you mentioned that, because we’ve definitely had to do that with older goats in the US.
So when you were at ADGA, you got to meet a lot of Americans. You were there listening to all the sessions and stuff. Was there anything that jumped out at you as like, Oh, wow. That’s really different than Australia.
Jade 24:38
For me, everything jumped out. Americans don’t do anything by halves. Everything was big and bold and comprehensive. We don’t have that here. We’re a lot more laid back. Plus, we don’t have the numbers that you have in America. So, we’re on a much smaller scale. I’m sure we’ll get there in the coming years, but we’re always going to be a little behind you.
Everything was amazing, the judges’ training, the linear appraisal stuff, the AI stuff, everything was bigger and better. So much more information on absolutely everything. And the American people are just so beautiful. They wear their hearts on their sleeves, and we just, Sue and I, really love them. I don’t know if we were just lucky, because we get some strange people here in Australia, but every American we met were just so wonderful and hospitable. We had an awesome time over there. Can’t wait to come back.
Deborah 25:43
Yeah, I’m so glad to hear that.
Sue 25:45
Yeah, yeah, we certainly did. We’re addicted.
Deborah 25:48
Oh, good.
Sue 25:49
Everybody was so willing to share their information, and we learned so much. And it was wonderful, because a lot of the things that we were learning over there we are doing over here as well. So it was good for us to get that feedback and that reassurance that we’re doing the right thing. But yeah, brilliant judges, brilliant, brilliant breeders, brilliant members, beautiful people.
Deborah 26:17
Oh, thank you. So do you see a lot of goat cheese or goat meat in the stores or restaurants in Australia?
Jade 26:24
Goat meat is becoming more and more popular, and I think we’re one of the biggest exporters of goat meat, Australia now. So yeah, that’s a plus. And certainly goats cheese. We’ve got creameries and, you know, like cheese shops. I don’t know what you call them there, but we certainly got lots more goats cheese about now, not so much from Nigerians. They’re still coming from the Saanens, from the, you know, the bigger producers. But we are seeing, now, smaller hobbyists who are releasing Nigerian Dwarf cheese, which is really nice to see.
Sue 26:58
And soap. We have a lot of interest in the goat milk soap over here too. It’s very, very popular. You see it everywhere.
Deborah 27:08
So when it comes to the dairies and stuff, what kind of rules do you have in Australia about selling milk? Do you have to be a certified dairy?
Sue 27:18
Yes, in milk, yes, yeah. So I think it’s the same as you over there. They’ve got to be licensed. So you’re allowed to use your own milk for your own personal use, but we’re not allowed to sell it unless we’re properly licensed.
Deborah 27:33
So it’s been so much fun having you here today and chatting about this. I love learning about goats in other countries. Is there anything else that you want to share with people? Is there anything that you think would really surprise people about your goats?
Jade 27:49
I think our goats are the same as your goats. I don’t know if there’s any big surprise there, but…
Sue 27:56
Pretty good quality.
Jade 28:01
Yeah, we’re getting up there.
Sue 28:03
Even the dairy, even the big dairy goats over here are quite comparable to the goats in America.
Jade 28:09
Yes, they are. The bigger dairies, we’ve had breeders breeding them a long time, whereas the Nigerians and Pygmies are such–they’re new into our country that we’re perfecting them, but, yeah, we’ve got some beautiful older–and they’re we’re exporting them too. There’s quite a few breeders exporting the bigger, the Saanens and Nubians.
Sue 28:31
Live animals. We are allowed to export live animals. That’s the difference, I think, between us bringing them in, as opposed to us sending them out. We can send live animals out. When we’re importing our animals in, they have to be minimum of five years of age for the testing. So we’re not doing terminal testing with young animals. They’re actually older animals, and some are quite old. Some are, you know, nine and 10 and 11 years old when we’re bringing them, having them put through the process.
And I know I do the Pygmies. I import Pygmies over here. I’ve imported a few. And I know my facility over there are fabulous with the animals. They’re very, very kind, and they get treated like royalty, the animals, while they’re in the facility, and get the best of everything. So as awful as it is to have to put them down, they have a really good life with their breeders to start with, and then as they go into the facility, they’re very well looked after. It is difficult, because we’d love to be able to bring the live animals across, but we can’t.
Deborah 29:50
And this is because Australia is scrapie-free and the United States is not at this time.
Sue 29:56
Correct, although there’s not, there’s not very much in America now, from what I’ve heard.
Deborah 30:04
There’s none. We are up to, I think, year three. We were going to have an update in the next couple months. We’ve already got it scheduled. We’re going to have an update with somebody from the USDA for a scrapie update, because we did one a few years ago. We have gotten as far along before as three or four years with no positive scrapies in the United States, and we’re there again now. So everybody’s getting really hopeful, because we have to go seven years with zero cases before we’re considered scrapie-free.
Sue 30:35
That would be wonderful. And then we wouldn’t have to do the terminal testing then. We’d be able to collect the animals, do the regular testing, because that can still test the scrapie with all the other organs and little samples without having to do the brain sample test. So, if you did become clear, I’m sure they’d be able to do all the other tests and then not have to do that final terminal test, which would be fabulous.
Deborah 31:06
Yeah, and it would open up the genetics for you a lot more, because I’m sure there’s not a lot of breeders who are crazy about the idea of having their buck collected and then put down. So you’d be able to get some even better genetics.
Jade 31:19
Maybe not better. I think we’ve got the best. So, yeah, but we get different genetics.
Sue 31:27
I think we’ve done pretty well. We’ve worked with the breeders in America to get what we’ve got, and they’ve been very, very helpful and very understanding, and they’ve actually helped our Australian population, animal populations, immensely by allowing us to access select good quality, top quality animals to bring over. So we’re very, very grateful to the Americans and the American breeders that have allowed us to do that.
It is a big decision. It’s a very tough decision, especially when you raise the animals, you know, for so long. But yeah, we are very, very grateful, and those animals then go on in their progeny. It’s a huge honor. And a legacy for the breeders in America, you know, to have their animals over here. It’s just massive. Very, very grateful.
Deborah 32:27
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love Old Mountain Farm genetics. I’ve got, well, he has died now, but I did have a buck from them who left me with a lot of really great daughters. So I know they’ve got some very nice goats there.
Sue 32:40
They’re beautiful people. We love Cheryl and Will. They’re beautiful people. We were very, very lucky to go and visit them while we were in America, and we had a wonderful time. They were so hospitable and so lovely.
Jade 32:55
Yeah, beautiful people.
Deborah 32:57
Well, it has been so much fun chatting with you today. Do you have any final words before we sign off?
Jade and Sue 33:05
We hope to see you next year!
Deborah 33:08
I know. Yeah, I’ve already got the dates on my calendar for Boston next October, so that’ll be awesome. If you guys go, we get to see you again.
Jade 33:18
I’m going to try for Boston. If not, it’s going to be 2026 for sure.
Sue 33:22
Yeah, definitely.
Deborah 33:25
Alright. Well, we’ll definitely keep in touch.
Jade 33:28
Thank you for having us.
Deborah 33:29
Yeah, thanks for being here today.
Sue 33:31
Yeah, it’s lovely to meet you over in America, and lovely to talk to you again today.
Deborah 33:37
And that’s it for today’s show. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to hit the “subscribe” button so that you don’t miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit ForTheLoveOfGoats.com and you can follow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/LoveGoatsPodcast. See you again next time. Bye for now!
