Guardian Llamas: A Conversation with an Expert

Episode 141
For the Love of Goats

Have you been considering getting a guard llama for your herd? You may have many questions such as: where can I find a good guard llama? How much should I expect to pay? Are there traits I should look for? What about the importance of age and the castration status for males?  

In this episode, Deborah is talking to Carol Reigh of Buck Hollow Llamas, an expert who has been raising and breeding llamas for 27 years and selling guard llamas for around 20 years. Listen in as she offers sage advice on choosing a good guard llama, identifying behavioral problems you should watch out for and what can lead to them, how to introduce your new guard to your herd, and why you should always avoid purchasing llamas from auctions. Plus, learn about Berserk Male Syndrome and why bottle-fed llamas could be dangerous.   

To dive deeper into the topic, check out our detailed article about Llamas as Guardians.

Read Tips for Protecting Your Livestock from Predators, to learn some of the ways we’ve had success in protecting livestock from predators.

Transcript – Guardian Llamas

Introduction 00:02
For the love of goats. We are talking about everything goat. Whether you’re a goat owner, a breeder, or just a fan of these wonderful creatures, we’ve got you covered. And now, here’s Deborah Niemann.

Deborah Niemann 00:17
Hello everyone, and welcome to today’s episode. We are changing things up just a little bit, because we’re not exactly talking about goats today, but we are talking about livestock guardians, specifically llamas. We have had llamas on our farm, and they were fantastic livestock guardians, and unfortunately, we don’t have them anymore.

Well, you’ll hear more about that later, but I am by no means a llama expert, and so, you know, I always go looking for somebody who’s got tons of experience in a topic before I invite them to the show. And I’m really excited that we found Carol Reigh of Buck Hollow Llamas, and she’s been raising and breeding llamas for 27 years. She’s been the conference chair of the largest camelid conference in the country eight times. She served on several national boards, and she’s been selling llamas as livestock guardians for about 20 years. Welcome to the show, Carol.

Carol 01:08
Thank you.

Deborah Niemann 01:09
I’m so excited to have you here today. So, I gotta tell everybody my crazy llama story. This past week, I was at the Dairy Sheep Association of North America conference, and Friday night was open mic where everybody got to tell their funny stories, their funny farm stories, and I told my llama story.

You know, I always tell people I was a clueless city slicker when we moved out to the farm, and nothing exemplifies that as much as my llama experience. We’d been out there for a few months, and I had heard that llamas were good guardians for sheep and goats, and so I found one online for the amazing bargain price of only $50.

And Carol is already laughing, because she knows this is not going to end well. Nobody sells a high quality animal for $50, it doesn’t matter what species it is. So I send my husband to go get the llama, and he brings it home and lets the llama in the pasture. And my first big red flag should have been when the llama came running up to me like I was his new best friend and puts his face in my face and– Carol looks really worried now.

If you’re listening to this audio, she knows. She’s covering her face. She’s like, oh, this is bad. Being the clueless city slicker that I was, I immediately started to pet him, and I’m just running my hand up and down his neck. It was the softest thing I had ever felt in my life. And he starts making a purring sound, which I thought was just the cutest thing ever. And I keep petting him, and he keeps purring, and he’s got his face in my face, and within a split second, I was on the ground. He was standing over me, straddling me, all four legs. His face was in my face, and I am now screaming bloody murder, crawling, trying to get away from him.

I had no idea what was on his mind, but after consulting with the people on my Yahoo homesteading group, which is what we all used back in 2002, I learned that he thought I was his new girlfriend and llamas mate lying down, and so you just kind of fill in the blanks there.

And I finally managed to get away from him, and was advised, like, do not ever go in the pasture with him unless you’ve got a big stick or something. And the assumption was that he was intact and had maybe even bottle-fed as a baby, and I didn’t think. I’m like, no, I don’t see any testicles, because next dumb city slicker mistake, I thought they would be hanging down like a sheep or goat, and they are not.

And several months later, when he was walking away from me, he flipped his tail up over his back, and I saw what looked like a couple of little eggs on his back end, which I immediately recognized as testicles, and realized, like, oh yeah, all those people were right. This is an intact llama. And he did think I was his new girlfriend. Don’t ever buy an animal for $50.

So, Carol, that’s like my terrible llama mistake. So that’s the wrong way to do it. Okay, do not–do not–buy a $50 llama online. So what should somebody do if they’re thinking about getting a llama as a livestock guardian for their goats?

Carol 04:31
Well, actually, I have to admit that’s probably the worst story I’ve ever heard. I’ve heard a lot of good stories. But no, this is a good segue into, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of, it’s called Berserk, what used to be called Berserk male syndrome, but now they call it Berserk animal syndrome. But many sheep and goat people get sucked into that scenario, because a) they don’t know any better.

And you know, shame on the people selling them. They know that something’s wrong. And, unfortunately, those animals can’t be rehabilitated, and they’re very, very dangerous. I mean, you probably know now how lucky you were. But they can be very, very dangerous. And it is caused by inappropriate bottle feeding, or animals being taken away from their moms too early, weaned too early, and then coddled. And then, and sometimes lone llamas.

I mean, llamas are very, very social. So unless they’re going to guard sheep or goats or alpacas, I will never sell anyone a single animal. And I also don’t sell anything under a year to new people because of that. Because, you know, my idea, you know, I might say, don’t cuddle them. They’re so sweet you want to, but everybody’s idea of not cuddling is different. So I always go err on the safe side.

And if you’re new to animals and livestock, I won’t let them go until after they’re one, and by then they probably are not. And I don’t, I very seldom–I don’t know that I’ve ever had to bottle feed an animal for maybe, maybe I’ve had to supplement for a couple of days, but very rare. But anyway, so that it really is a scenario, and so I would caution against that because, you know, it’s interesting, the Berserk animal syndrome sometimes doesn’t even show itself until maybe a month or a couple weeks after you’ve had the animal on your farm. And I’ve been called in on a couple cases to evaluate.

And I’m like, I don’t think this…you know I was really up in the air, and then I went back a couple weeks later and evaluated, and all that territorial behavior kind of was a little more obvious. So you found it out really early. But the other thing I always tell people to never get an intact male to guard. I mean, of course, you want a gelding. But, even more importantly, you have to make sure that that gelding has never, ever bred. I always say, get a virgin gelding, because I have a gelding–I have a couple geldings on my farm, and when the girls come in, they still want to breed.

And so it’s, you know, you geld and take the testosterone issue out of the picture. But there’s still that, I don’t know, memory of them. And you know, for other llamas, they can, he can try to breed other llamas, and the females just ignore him. But you don’t want a big llama jumping on your sheep or goats, because they think, oh, well, I want to breed them. And so I always say, make sure that animal–and I’d love, in our industry for animals, I’d love to get something started that they get tagged when they’re gelded as virgins. Like some, you know, a chip or a notch in their ear, or something so people know, because that does happen. And you might know the person at the time that you buy, say, an intact male.

I see it all the time, oh, I have an intact male that would make a great guard or 4-H animal. Well, probably make a good 4-H animal, but it’s not going to make a good guard. And so that animal sometimes gets passed on. And you know that from a 4-H animal, it’s a gelding, and then maybe five years later they want to sell it or whatever, and they sell it as a guard, thinking that it’s fine. And it could be. There’s plenty of people that have had–well, I don’t know plenty–but I know people that have had an animal that used to be intact, and they haven’t had problems. But I know more people that have had problems. So I’m just, I always err on the side of safety, because I don’t, I don’t want anything to happen.

Deborah 09:07
Yeah, yeah. I’m so glad you mentioned that about getting one that has never bred a female, because I had not heard that before, and I knew how important it was that you not get an intact male to guard because that was one of the things I heard really early on. The man who fills up our propane tank on the farm was telling me about it. He got a llama to guard his sheep, and he kept finding dead ewes around the hay feeder, and he had no idea why. Like, why are these ewes, like, dying around my hay feeder? And then he finally saw one day, it was because the llama was laying on top of them. Because, I guess we didn’t say that, but the way that llamas, they call it kushing–they kush. The way that llamas mate is that the female lays down and the male lays on top of them. So when you’ve got something like a sheep or a goat, they don’t have to lay down. The llama can just go walk over them and lay down and, unfortunately, crush them because they weigh so much more.

Carol 10:11
Mmm, hmm, yeah. And so I really feel like that’s important. And people do use females too as guards, and they make great guards. I mean, the jury’s out within the industry about which are better–females or males as guard? I think they’re equally good. But I tell people, do you want to pay a breeding female price? Because, I mean, unless I have a female that’s a non-breeder, and sometimes that takes a long time to determine, you’re going to be buying a female that’s a breeding female, and I’m going to sell her at a breeding female price. And so I tell people, unless you can find a non-breeder–and I try to, I’d help people find them if I don’t–but they’re kind of rare. I mean, they’re not as easy to find as geldings, let’s say. Put it like that.

Deborah Niemann 11:01
Let’s talk a little bit about what llamas are good at guarding and not guarding, and what predators they can guard against. So, like, with goats–obviously, we’re mostly talking about guarding goats here–but like, they would not be good at guarding your chickens against raccoons.

Carol 11:19
You’re correct. I mean, they’re good with goats and sheep, alpacas, any other smaller livestock. There are a bunch of men from West Virginia that were really interested in the llamas as guards for their cattle. And I’m like, wait a minute. Can’t cows take care of themselves? But he said that they have such an awful coyote problem down there that the coyotes will get the calf as it’s being born.

Deborah 11:51
Oh, my goodness.

Carol 11:52
I was horrified by that, but they didn’t get one for me. I found them one from a friend, and I guess they worked, but the llamas naturally do not like coyotes. They can’t, like anything, they cannot guard against a pack of anything. They can give the alarm call. And the alarm call is– which you probably heard–didn’t you with yours? The alarm call is very distinctive. I always say it’s kind of between a horse’s neigh and a donkey bray, and I would imitate it, but…[laughter]…you would think I was crazy and this is weird. So they will do that, and they’ll go to charge.

But usually when I hear the alarm call, I’m like, okay, I need to go check it out. I need to maybe get the gun, whatever. And so that’s how they will guard the smaller livestock. When you mentioned chickens, I had a fella, he had 3000 chickens, and he wanted a guard llama. And I said to him, “Look, I don’t, I do not think the llama is going to bond with the chickens to care about them.” But he just wanted to try it. And I said, “Well, look, instead of wasting your money, let me send somebody over to you. I have Elmer who’s a really good guard, and he’s, he’s just a really good guy.” I said, “Let’s just try it for a month or two and see.” And so we did.

And we got there–3000 chickens is a lot of chickens free range. And you know, they’re pecking at his fetlocks and his legs, and they’re pecking at my legs, and I’m thinking he’s gonna kick them to the moon. He did not. He was amazing. He just tolerated it. But he said, “Look.” I think he called me in about a week or two, and he said, “Look, we’ve had a couple losses.” And I said, “I don’t, I think it’s too much for a) one llama and 2) I don’t think he cares about the chickens.” So we tried it for a month, and I, basically, I think he just really wanted a llama and wanted an excuse to have one. So we kind of, I said, “Let me take–let me bring Elmer back, and you guys can think about it.” So, yeah, I kind of agree with you on the llamas guarding chickens. Just chickens.

Deborah 14:14
Yeah. And I don’t think they care about–they really just hate canines, like coyotes and smaller dogs. They don’t really, I don’t think they really care about raccoons. Like raccoons, that kind of thing, they’re so small.

Carol 14:30
Well, I did find a dead raccoon in my male field, so I think they cared enough about it. Like he didn’t know what it was, so he just stomped on it. And I did watch, I did watch a groundhog. I was trying to help him out here, but he ran across my female field, and all the females are like, whoa! And they start going down to him, but he got to the next field, and he was totally clueless. Clueless. I’m like, you need to get out of here. And then he gets over to the last field, and I have a male in there, and I’m like, oh, I hope he gets to the woods before the male sees him. Well, he wasn’t so lucky.

And Harvard sees him, and he comes charging to him, and he tried to stomp on him a couple times. I mean, the groundhog got–he was real close to the fence–and he got under it, and then he went back again. And I was like, oh my gosh. So he, I don’t think Harvard ever got him, but they’ll–And I found a possum that was stomped on too, so little critters. And yet my cats weave in and out. They kind of sniff them, and they’ve never been stomped on. So I think it’s more if they’re not sure what it is, we might as well go for it.

Deborah Niemann 15:44
If it’s unfamiliar, like doesn’t belong here.

Carol 15:48
Yeah, if it doesn’t belong here. And I had, you know, just to go back to how good they are at guarding, I had in the very beginning, I wanted to run my animals through a sheep farm to just kind of get a scorecard on them. Because, truly, and this is something I want to make sure that people understand, just because you’re tall doesn’t make you a good volleyball or basketball player, and just because you’re a llama doesn’t make you a good guard. Because, I mean, I always joke around and say I have some that would walk up to a mountain lion.

But there’s characteristics about them that you can tell one’s going to be a better guard than another. But anyway, I would run them through a sheep farm that was close to me, and the people went away, and I said, “Well, I’ll come over and check your animals while you’re gone, and check on the llama and stuff.” And I went over after a really big storm, and I could tell the llama was out of sorts, and she was just pacing and just carrying on. And I’m like, what the heck? And here in the back of the barn, a big tree had fallen down, and I’m like, oh my gosh, don’t, please don’t tell me a little sheep is under there, a ewe or something.

And thank goodness there wasn’t, but she was beside herself because of this impending danger or something that was really different about life there. And that’s the same woman would tell me that she had a ewe that had an injured leg, so she had brought it into her barn for a week or so to nurse it. And she said, “I think”–the animal’s name was Annie–she said, “I think Annie can count, because she knew right away there was a sheep missing.” And I’m like, well, maybe she can. I don’t know. If you want to think that, fine. So they’re really, really intelligent, and they really take their job seriously, as you know. It’s incredible. They’ll give up their life for guarding a flock. I don’t know if you had any experiences of your guard llama kind of corralling your animals to the barn and then out of danger. I hear that story all the time.

Deborah Niemann 18:00
Oh, interesting. Well, what happened was after–so 2002 was the year we moved to the farm and we bought our first llama, which was not good. He only lived about six months, because I knew nothing about meningeal worms. So looking back on it, I’m thinking he got that. We’ll talk about meningeal worm in a little while. But in 2007 we were losing lambs like crazy, and I finally decided to try llamas. And so I got a couple of geldings and put them out there with the sheep. And a week after, so first of all, on day one, I thought, I am going to get up and look out there and find a dead llama. Like I just had such a hard time believing that they were going to be able to deal with this problem, because we had lost eight lambs already. And then, really, the final straw was when we lost a four year-old ewe. The only thing left of her–like when we went out in the morning, all that was left of her was her head and her foreleg.

So that’s when I realized we were dealing with a pack. And so when I talked to the person who had the llamas, she said, “You need two. If you know you’ve got a pack, you need two to deal with that.” So we got the two geldings. And a week later, my son came in and said that our ram had been attacked and he was missing a four inch by six inch piece of skin off of his back leg, but that was it. And so I feel like the llamas must have stopped that attack and chased him off, and that was it. That was the last time we ever had a problem with a predator, with a coyote, after we got the llamas.

So I was incredibly impressed with them and their ability. In fact, I wound up getting a couple of females and we were going to have babies and everything, and it was all going really, really beautifully, until the meningeal worm thing happened. But did you want to talk a little more about their guarding abilities before we get into the health issues?

Carol 20:01
Yeah, sure. And the other thing I wanted to make sure that people understand is that I won’t sell anyone a guard until it’s two years old. Like if they want it earlier, I say–and this is just me–but anything younger than that, if there’s something scary out there, they’re just going to beat the sheep and goats back to safety. You know, I don’t think they, they don’t have a sense of the herd. They don’t have a sense of their role. You know, they’re just teenagers then. And so I feel safe about making–and plus, you geld them at two years old too–and so I feel best about making sure and guaranteeing that this animal is a guard at two. I mean, I’ve had people say, “I just got a guard llama.” And I say, “Oh, yeah? How old is it?” “Oh, six months.” And I’m like, [sigh].

You know, people should not be selling you an animal as a guard at six months. You can sell it as a pet hoping it turns into a guard. Fine. But it’s not going to guard at six months. It’s not going to guard necessarily at a year. So I feel like that is something that’s really important for people to know. And I always say, as far as I talked about, not every guard is a good guard. I always, on my farm, the ones that I know and I feel like I can be really confident about their guarding ability, they’re the ones that are more aloof. They’re the ones that are kind of paranoid about life. You know, they’ll see something.

I had a girl, I had a hot air balloon come over, and this one llama is like giving the alarm call for about 10 minutes. And I swear she’s saying, get in the barn. The Martians are coming! Or something. So she was a good guard. She saw stuff. Or the ones that will see, look into the woods and give the alarm, or just be staring into the woods. You know, they’re seeing stuff. Their eyesight is incredible, and so they’re your more aloof llama. That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be able to halter it to do shots and vet them. They’re not that aloof. It’s just that they might come over and give a nose bump to say hello, but they’re done with that.

They, you know, they have more important things to do in their life than to socialize. They want to protect the flock or the herd. Because people say, “I want a guard llama, but I also want my son to be able to take it to school.” And I’m like, okay, well, you’re kind of asking for two different things there. So, and you probably could, but my guard, the ones that I know are guards, they are not happy going to school or doing birthday parties or that kind of thing, because, you know, they’re scared of everything. You know, they’re seeing stuff and like, I don’t know. So I think that that’s important for people to understand. And, you know, I don’t know if you guys have those black vultures…

Deborah 23:00
Yeah.

Carol 23:01
…out there? We really have a bad problem with them here, or at least the sheep people do. And again, another scenario was a neighbor of mine wanted to know if they would guard against these vultures and I’m like, I don’t know what you’re talking about here. And she told me how awful they are, and they peck the eyes out of the babies. So she said, they’re always circling her field. So once again, I said, “Well, look, let me lend you one. Let’s see how it works.”

Because, you know, once again, I don’t want to have her buy a llama and then not have it work. So I lent her one, and she called me that next day, and she said all those vultures were circling, but not one of them landed. And I said, “Oh, great, because they all came over to my place.” [laughter] Because they were over at my place, and I hadn’t really experienced them until after this incident. And knock on wood, I’ve never had them injure a cria, but I don’t trust them because they’ll be right on the fence, and the llamas kind of ignore them. So I don’t think until the llamas realize that they’re dangerous, that they do anything. But by just virtue of this creature being with her flock, she didn’t have any problems after that. So I thought that was interesting. But then I didn’t think it was so much fun that they were all over my place hanging around. Yeah.

Deborah Niemann 24:34
So we’ve already established the fact that $50 is not a good price for a llama. If somebody’s only priced a llama at $50 the reality really is they should probably be paying you to take away their problem for them. So what kind of a price range are people usually looking at when they–to get a llama for a guard animal?

Carol 24:55
Today, I hear prices all over the place. I mean, I’ve heard as high as $4500. I sell my guards for, depending on some criteria, between $3000-$3500. I think, you know, I don’t really know. I know that they’re hard to find. I mean, when people call me, I’ll put them on a waiting list, and I also say I’ll try to find one. So I call my friends in Illinois and Indiana and Iowa, and people that I see chose and also people that I really trust to buy from. And sometimes they don’t have them either. So it’s a good thing that these animals are being used for a great purpose, but they’re not as easy to find as your $50 llama.

Even though 10 years ago, you could find them a lot easier, and you could find llamas in rescues, but you usually can’t. I do tend to discourage people from auctions. I mean, you can end up with a great situation, but more than likely that, you know. There was a lady near me that my vet asked me to come in on and see if her animal was Berserk, and it was. And, you know, I said that no question about it, that animal was Berserk. And so the vet suggested that she put her down. She said, “No, I can’t do that. I’m just going to send it to the auction.” So that’s what’s happening with these Berserk animals.

And you won’t know, like I said, you won’t know when you’re at the auction. And even you won’t know for the first month when you get them home. It could be sooner, but that’s my biggest fear with auction animals, and that’s why, real early in the industry, when people, I think it started maybe with the alpacas, people would get a guard, and they’d get it from an auction, and I can’t tell you how many alpaca people would come to my farm frightened to death of llamas, and they said they’re mean, and they’re eye-level, and they just spit at you, and then, and all of that, as you know, is Berserk behavior. They don’t want to spit at you. It’s disgusting.

And so I think that’s my biggest fear. And then also you could just get something that’s broken down and not capable of guarding. So that would be my other big suggestion, because it always breaks my heart when people get stuck with something that, you know. You were at least fortunate that your Berserk animal got meningeal worm.

Deborah 27:33
Yeah.

Carol 27:34
If not, then people have them for you know, unless they have them put down, they’ll have them for 18 years.

Deborah Niemann 27:42
Yeah, let’s go ahead and talk about meningeal worm a little bit. So, it’s a really interesting worm because it’s naturally in white tail deer. If you’re out west and you don’t have white tail deer, this is not going to be a problem for you, but those of us in the eastern half of the US who have white tailed deer may have to deal with this. And that is that meningeal worm–it’s in the deer, the deer poops, and the eggs are in their poop, and then they hatch, and a snail or slug then crawls across and picks up the larva in their slime.

And then, if a goat–because we’ve done, we’ve done a whole podcast episode on meningeal worm with Tatiana Smith from Cornell–and then, so then, if a goat or sheep or llama eats something that’s got that larva on it from that came from the snail, they might accidentally eat the snail or the slug, or it may just be like their slime with the larva got left on a leaf or something that they eat, then they can wind up getting infected. And instead of staying in the intestinal tract, like all of the intestinal worms, it goes on a little journey and takes a few months to find its way to the spinal column, or maybe even the brain stem, where it causes paralysis and neurological problems. And it’s a horrible, horrible disease. And it’s kind of like looking back, it just is super obvious to me.

After having llamas with meningeal worm, it’s super obvious to me now, like, oh, that first one we had, that’s why he died. Because we found him at the bottom of a hill, and all of the snow, it was in January, all of the snow was gone from above. So like, he had obviously fallen at the top of the hill and, like, skidded down. And being newbies were like, oh, I guess he broke his back or something when he fell down the hill. But a healthy llama does not fall down a hill, you know? So it’s like he was probably just at the top of that hill when the paralysis set in, and that’s where he fell and rolled down the hill.

Because our first llama with meningeal worm, we found she’s just like laying in the middle of the pasture. She couldn’t walk, and so we had to get her to the university vet hospital, where we finally got a diagnosis. And it’s horrible. They tried to treat her, but spinal column damage does not always heal. And so after six months of like lifting her many, many times a day, because if we lifted her, she could stand for anywhere from 10 minutes to a couple hours. It was like a part-time job going out there and lifting her many, many times a day, thinking she’s going to get stronger, she’s going to get stronger.

And after six months, like that was the hardest decision we ever had to make to finally put her down. Because, like, you know what, it’s been six months. Her quality of life is terrible. It’s not, it’s not getting better, you know? So that was a really hard decision to put her down. So I’m sure you have a lot more information about meningeal worm. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

30:47
Yeah, I can a little. Thank goodness, my farm, I’ve never had an experience like that. I mean I have white tailed deer everywhere, like I told you. But there are some telltale signs. Like I will always, like, if I see them drag a leg, or sometimes there’ll be a head tilt if it’s in their spinal column, or they walk like they’re a little bit drunk–ataxic. Those are some symptoms that, if I see that, and it’s also really easy to confuse heat stress symptoms and meningeal worm, because they both kind of present themselves the same. Either way, I still always treat for meningeal worm, because if I do treat and they don’t have it, it’s not going to hurt them.

And if I don’t treat and they have it, they’re going to die. And so you can save them. And, like what you said, it’s true that once they have the nerve damage, it’s really hard to bring them back from that, but if you catch it, and it’s hard to, I mean, like you said, especially, I think with a guardian llama. Like I’m with my llamas all the time, and if they sneeze funny, I can tell, you know, who’s off or something. But you know, thinking, okay, you have a flock of sheep or goats, and you have one llama in with them, and you’re not even sure what’s normal behavior walking, it would be very easy to miss.

And that’s when you know, it starts out with those subtle symptoms, and then they get to a point where they can’t get up. It’s usually back end damage is worse, and then they can’t get up. It’s very, very hard to bring them back from not being able to get up. And kudos to you for giving it six months, because sometimes people have been able to but that animal never really will recover. I mean, they’ll be able to get up and walk, maybe, but definitely not normal. And so, I’m on a protocol that every 30 days I treat with ivermectin or Dectomax.

And then, when it gets like frozen ground or snow on the ground and there’s no more, I don’t when I feel like the slugs aren’t an issue–because if you don’t have slugs, you don’t have meningeal worm– then I’ll try to take a break. And then I know when they get infested, it can take 30 to 60 days to present itself, even symptomatically. So like people will say, well, they got it in December, but really, they probably got the worm in October or November. So that’s kind of what my protocol is. And then you treat it with Banamine and Safeguard. And every time I go to a llama conference, I learn a new treatment or a different protocol.

But now–it used to be with Dectomax, you would do Dectomax every 45 days and ivermectin every 30 days–now they’re saying you do both every 30 days. And the dosage is different for both of them. But that was a new kind of a new thing that came out this year, I guess, or at least I heard about it this year. So and then, once they have it, you don’t want ivermectin to cross the blood-brain barrier. And so some vets say give ivermectin to kill whatever else is in their system. But there’s the danger that the ivermectin getting into the blood-brain barrier, if you’re starting to see you know symptoms already that you could cause further damage. So I always say that that’s a call for the vet, but Safeguard seems to do the trick in really big amounts. I think it’s for five days. I don’t know what it is for sheep and and goats, but…

Deborah 34:44
Yeah, and it’s five times the dosage that’s on the bottle. And I hadn’t heard the thing about the ivermectin causing damage. Safeguard can cross the blood-brain barrier, which is why that’s the one that works. And originally, so like when our llamas had it, the protocol was Safeguard and ivermectin and an anti-inflammatory, but then a few years ago, Cornell did a study where they had one group that got Safeguard only, one group that got Safeguard and ivermectin, and there was no difference between the two.

So that’s when they realized, like, well, it’s really the Safeguard that’s killing them. And so I’m not sure why anybody would do the ivermectin, because the Safeguard, like, if there’s still worms in the gut, Safeguard’s going to kill them too. If it’s killing one in the spinal column or the brainstem, it’s going to kill one that’s still in the gut also. So that’s why, like, because people have asked me about, like, relapses in goats and stuff, and, no, you don’t get a relapse because, like, one worm can kill a goat or a llama, unlike intestinal worms, where we’re looking at hundreds or 1000s, you know, right, to cause damage. I mean, because it’s in the spinal column, you know? So it doesn’t take a lot to mess things up in there.

Carol 36:05
No, I’ve heard people say too that, oh, they had a relapse, and I am having a hard time with that. I feel kind of the same way you do that maybe they didn’t treat it at the correct dosage, and they delayed it but didn’t kill it. I don’t really know, but I’m like, no, they might have gotten reinfected.

Deborah Niemann 36:26
Yeah. And if you’re in a place like, I know they usually say that, like, infection happens in spring and summer, but then you don’t see sickness until fall and winter. And that was kind of what happened with us, because we had–so if you read like, how do you prevent meningeal worm? one of the things they say is having a guard dog to keep deer off your property. And we didn’t realize until after we had this problem–because all of our llamas died within about six months from meningeal worm–and we realized the reason we hadn’t had any problems is because we had an Anatolian shepherd who hated deer. And we would comment on the fact that, like, there were deer on the horizon, and he was barking at them.

So he didn’t think deer needed to be anywhere near our farm. And our Pyrenees, on the other hand, really didn’t care. She was like, oh, there’s a deer. Fine. They’re fine. They’re not a danger. And so he died in June, and our first case of meningeal worm was in November, and then just over the next few months, just another llama got it, and another llama, and another llama, until they were all gone. And so it was really frustrating. And I know one of my fears back then, we originally dealt with complete dewormer resistance on our farm with our goats, so that none of the dewormers worked on our goats. This was like, it was about 10–11 years ago when this happened, and I didn’t realize at the time that, so the problem with goats and sheep is that they scatter their poop everywhere.

So if you give–because people ask me this about their goats, like, well, I have white tail deer. Should I be giving my goats ivermectin every month? And I’m like, no. First of all, goats are not that susceptible to meningeal worm. But the other thing is, goats are spreading their poop all over the pasture. So if you give them ivermectin every month, it’s not going to kill barber pole worm anymore and that’s what’s going to kill your goats. So, I lost 100% of my llamas to meningeal worm, and out of all the goats we’ve had in 22 years, you know, we usually have 20-30, adults, we’ve had 760 kids, we’ve had three cases of meningeal worm in the goats. That’s it.

So I’m not going to treat my goats for something that has only killed three goats in 22 years to prevent something that could easily kill all of my goats if that drug doesn’t work anymore. You know, it’s like, what are the pros and cons? The reality is, barber pole worm is like the number one killer of goats. So we gotta keep all those drugs working for goats. And the reason that’s not a problem for camelids, really–I think this is one of the coolest things about llamas–is that they have a dung pile, which I didn’t know, of course, before I got them. But then you find these piles of poop in your pasture. So instead of scattering their poop and those worm eggs all over the pasture, they’re just right there in this one pile, and nobody is going to be eating the grass that’s growing out of the poop pile.

Carol 39:38
Exactly, exactly. I mean, we do in the camelid world, we do have barber pole as an issue. They don’t eat around their dung pile, but here’s what I think, they walk through it, and then they walk in the grass. But it’s still, I mean, I know that the number of count for parasite treatment in camelids is we might treat at, I don’t–basically, what I’m saying is you guys, your parasite load is a lot higher before you treat than ours, because we don’t have…

Deborah 40:16
Yeah, and we’re doing the FAMACHA, and checking the body condition, and as long as they’re pooping pebbles, it’s usually good. So, yeah. And, ideally, and for goats, people need to be rotating pastures anyway, but they don’t always. That’s a good point about the llamas walking around the pile and then scattering some eggs that way. So that’s probably the only reason they wind up with any, you know?

Carol 40:41
Yeah, exactly, because they really, they will not touch it if it’s close to the poop pile. So whenever I have to mow in the fields–I mean, I clean my fields–but the areas that grow the highest is the poop area so that’s what I usually have to mow once a month in the summer months. Yeah, and it’s easy to clean up because it’s all in one area, usually. Well, basically, sometimes they’re poop areas, you know, expand. I actually have litter boxes in my barn. Because I thought, as long as they’re doing it, I want to make sure I visualize it. So, yeah, do that.

Deborah 41:17
So really, the two big things with the llamas in terms of parasites that you need to be concerned about and be aware of would be the barber pole worm, which we also see in goats, and then meningeal worm. Is there anything else that people need to be aware of?

Carol 41:33
I mean, they do get, they can get a case of strongyle and Nematodirus and, oh, coccidia. They can get that and do that, but it’s not at all, you know, the same as the sheep and goats. But I do tell people that have a guard llama to really be on top of their llama, too, because now they’re living with, you know, these critters that poop everywhere, and I think that Nematodirus and strongyle and the stomach worms are cross species–can cross the species. And you know, back in the day, every spring and fall, you dose the whole herd. This was before resistance. You dose the whole herd for intestinal worms and stomach worms and stuff, but we don’t do that anymore.

Now I just keep an eye on the poop pile, and if anyone’s poop is looking a little weird, I have fecals done. And if someone seems to have lost weight or, you know, is off and I check their eyes every month when I do Dectomax. I check their eyes for the FAMACHA score. And so now it’s more of an individualized program. And I just always encourage people that have llama as a guard, and that’s why I always want to make sure that people realize that just because they have this guard, they don’t just throw it out in the field and forget about it. It really does need to be vetted and to check hands on it to just do a body score on it.

Llamas should not– their top line should not be straight across fat. It should be, wait a second, like that, and, and that’s a healthy weight for them. Sometimes they, I think, can get a little chunky because they’re being fed more. You know, llamas should only be fed 10% in dry matter, 10% of their body weight. So, you know, like three pounds of hay or grain a day, that’s not a lot–a flake of hay. So it’s one flake of hay. And then I give my guys, my males, I give, like a–this is very official–a sour cream cup, 16 ounce sour cream cup of grain. And then my moms, or pregnant moms, or nursing females, a larger 32 ounce yogurt cup of grain. And so sometimes people tend to overfeed them, I think. I don’t know if that happens with the sheep and goats, but yeah.

Deborah 44:16
Some people can definitely overfeed their sheep and goats, especially like, if they’ve only got a couple, you know, because, like, they’re more like pets, and they equate food with love and give them treats that they shouldn’t have.

Carol 44:29
Exactly. And I don’t know if you do, I do, they do need to have CD and T rabies once a year. Rabies is dependent on your area. I am in a high rabid area so I do treat my guys for rabies, but I can give that myself. And CD and T, I think everybody gives CD and T. Other than that, those are the two vaccines they get once a year. And then the rest is just dosing for meningeal worm to prevent meningeal worm. Oh, I know what I wanted to mention, because I’ve had this happen. I know that when people get a guard, how to introduce them, because the llama sees the sheep or the goats or whatever, and they’re curious, and they’re like, oh, what are you?

Then they go over to it, and the sheep and goats are, like, scared out of their wits, because they’re like, what the heck?! And they run, and then the llama runs after, wait, I just want to be your friend! And so I always tell people, if you can put them in an enclosed area for the night or for a couple hours, that they can see each other, touch noses, and do whatever, and it’ll be a lot less stress on both sides of the equation for that. So I do, I do like to mention that to people. And then also, when guarding, I sold a guard llama to a lady, and she called me, and she said, the llama isn’t with the flock, and she just stands staring into the woods because they had, like, you know, their pastures were surrounded by woods. And I said, “Yeah!” And she thought that she was, I think it was a female at the time, she was yearning for home. And I said, “I don’t know.” I said, “They’re not going to stand in the middle of the flock, you know, with an M-80, waiting for something to come. They’re guarding by being aware.

I mean, they might eat with them, but most of times I feel like they’re on the periphery.” So, I mean, you have more experience with that, with what your guys did and and every animal is different, probably in how they guard, but for the most part, I think they’re, they’re looking at the exterior. So, one time I went over to, you know, I told you I had that, that sample farm that I would take my llamas over to just get them a scorecard. And I went over, and this llama failed miserably, because I drive in and the flock is on the other side of the barn. You couldn’t even see them, and she’s there eating all by herself. No interest at all where the sheep are. I think they’re interested at night, though. They’ll usually position themselves on the hill that they can overlook the flock and stuff. It’s pretty incredible the way they work. And we used to think back in the day that only one guard was enough. If you had two, they would just bond with each other and say, forget the sheep. But that’s not true. They really team teach, or whatever, so, and you could probably speak to that better than me with your herd.

Deborah 47:46
Yeah, the two llamas that we got originally did a really great job together, and that’s pretty much what we always did then, was like, wow, this is working really well for the sheep. Okay, let’s get two more to guard the goats. And so, we actually wound up with three sets of two in different parts of our farm, and it worked great.

Carol 48:07
Oh, okay, so you had two in each pasture.

Deborah Niemann 48:12
Mm, hmm, yeah. Because I just didn’t, I was just so worried, like, I knew the coyotes were really bad, and I did not want to go out there and find a dead llama one day. So, and I never did, not from coyotes anyway.

Carol 48:25
Right, right.

Deborah 48:27
So this has been, this has been really great. Is there anything else you can think of that somebody needs to know before they go out and get a guard llama?

Carol 48:37
We talked about age. We talked about, you know, male versus female, Berserk.

Deborah 48:42
How to introduce your llamas to your sheep or goats.

Carol 48:48
Yeah, so I think, I think that’s pretty that’s always my biggest…If you do feed llama minerals, many of the minerals have a little bit of copper in them, because llamas, they don’t need a lot of copper, but they do. So I know the minerals that I have made that have some copper in them, so you have to make sure that the llama minerals are a lot higher, or you have to figure out a way to feed it that the goats and sheep can’t get to it. Because, one of them–isn’t one of them can have copper, right?

Deborah 49:20
Yeah, sheep are very susceptible to copper toxicity, whereas goats need a lot.

49:24
Oh, okay, so it’s been tolerated.

Deborah 49:29
Yeah, so I always put the llama minerals up higher, though, so that only the llamas could get them, because I knew it did have a different formulation. I don’t remember how much copper it had in it compared to the goat minerals, but it’s like, well, the llamas could eat the goat minerals if they want to, because they’re down low, but the llama minerals are up high, so only the llamas can get them.

Carol 49:49
Yeah, yeah. So I think that’s a good solution. So anyway, yeah, I, I think that’s pretty much it. Anybody can call or contact me if they have any other questions.

Deborah Niemann 50:03
Yeah. So where can people find you online?

Carol 50:07
Through my website, which I don’t know if I gave you that, I guess I did. It’s buckhollowllamas.com. But also they can email me. I’m a lot better at emails than checking Facebook Messenger. I do check it, but not on a regular basis like I should. And my email is Carol at buckhollowllamas.com

Deborah 50:30
Okay, great.

Carol 50:31
Yeah, and so just keep in touch.

Deborah 50:33
Yeah, thanks so much for joining us. It’s been really fun. I really want llamas again, so.

Carol 50:39
This has been really fun, yeah.

Deborah 50:41
It has been. I loved my llamas so much, and now that I understand more about the parasite thing than I did 10 years ago, and the fact that, you know, yeah, nobody was eating from their eating the grass around their dung pile. Like that was the tallest, greenest grass in the pasture was around the dung pile. So that’s where all of that dewormer resistant larva is going to be in that pile, and nobody’s eating that. So we’re okay.

Carol 51:06
Yeah, well, you’re doing great. So what do you use now? Or do you not have as big of a coyote problem?

Deborah 51:12
Um, just dogs. So, yeah, and knock on wood, we don’t have the problem that we did 10 years ago, so.

Carol 51:21
Yeah, they all came out east. Yeah, we have a big coyote problem now. Even right now, as we’re talking, I hear them out there, and I’m like, this is kind of new for us. I mean, we’ve always known they’re there, but they’ve never been as visible as now, and so now I’m like, no, the llamas can take care of them, but it always makes me nervous.

Deborah 51:46
Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been great.

Carol 51:51
Well, thank you.

Deborah 51:53
And that’s it for today’s show. If you haven’t already done so, be sure to hit the “subscribe” button so that you don’t miss any episodes. To see show notes, you can always visit ForTheLoveOfGoats.com and you can follow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/LoveGoatsPodcast. See you again next time. Bye for now!